By Marshall Garvey and Sean Willis
Marshall: Hello everyone, and welcome to another Last Token Gaming Interview! I’m lead editor Marshall Garvey, joined by Sean Willis, who’s recording all this as we speak. We’re kicking our 2016 interview lineup off with an especially huge one, as today we’re joined by Gabriel Gutierrez. For starters, he’s the local Sacramento developer from Nascent Games, the studio behind the award-winning indie title Crumple. Additionally, he’s been an integral member of IGDA Sacramento since the Summer of 2012.
In the past few years, he’s worked tirelessly to bring the River City a plethora of gaming events, including game jams, mingle nights, demo feedback nights, and Sacramento Indie Gaming Arcade Expo, which we had a blast covering last year. He’s helped IGDA Sacramento’s reach stretch as far as Reno, San Francisco and San Diego, in addition to speaking at UC Davis, the Art Institute of Sacramento, and Sacramento City College. Today we’re excited to talk to him about his new game, what else he’s working on, and his endeavors with IGDA. Gabe, thanks for joining us!
Gabriel: My pleasure. Good evening guys!
Marshall: Alright, first question: Your indie title Crumple is a simple yet affecting game in which the player controls a piece of paper trapped in a burning paper factory. Where did you get the idea for the game?
Gabriel: The idea came from a company I used to work for. It was actually an envelope factory, and when I would walk out into the freight area, I would see all these huge racks of freights, these big signs that say, you know, “Don’t jump on this! Don’t walk or run on these things!” And all I wanted to do was play on that, that was the kid in me. And I just felt that, as I would see those and hear the loud machines going on, I felt like it was just a big staging ground for…something. And it kind of took a few months actually to kind of wrap my around…what could I possibly do with a game involving making envelopes? It just seemed so basic. (Laughs) I had no idea!
So one day, I was actually receiving these rejected envelopes, envelopes that were poorly done and so on and so forth. And I kind of grabbed one and I said, “You know what? I almost feel like I could do something with this!” So I just started nailing out some ideas…if I were to create an environment, turn this big freight docking are into a veritable playground in a game, what would happen? What would I do? Who or what would be involved with it? So I just looked at the envelope again and I said, “I think the envelope should be the character!”
And after I laughed at myself for about an hour, because it’s like, “This is ridiculous! You’re serious?”…it happened! And I actually drew up a little concept and I said, “The envelope is just an envelope. What would I want to make it look like?” So I had an envelope that had one window, and I said, “That could be the eye.” So I imagined a second eye, a second window, and I said, “Those are the eyes!”
And I said: “Holy crap, I think you’re on to something!” So I spoke with a good friend of mine, he was helping me with some modeling…but he had some knowledge with some very basic programming in Flash, and I said, “Could we do something like this? A game about an envelope?” And I just kind of showed it to him and he’s like, “You’re kidding, right?” I’m like, “No, I promise you. It is as absurd as it sounds.”
So we whipped something up and he said, “Well, what would you want the envelope to do?” And I just kind of started naming all these moves and so on and so forth…anyway, long story short, we created Enve, short for envelope, and now it’s known by some as the cutest thing they’ve ever seen, especially when it dies and burns in a fiery death. So I think I’ve started something good here, so there you go!
Marshall: That’s interesting you talk about that, like how a lot of people, myself included, find the character really cute. And you’re heart’s broken when it burns up! It kind of reminds me of when I play Pikmin, like anytime one of the little Pikmin dies, your heart just drops out your chest, it just kills you. And I feel the same way with Crumple. It’s like, you know, when he burns up, it’s just so deflating…it hits you harder than even a lot of gaming character deaths do.
On top of that, you talk about how basic it [the game] is. There’s also a minimalism to the game that’s definitely appealing, like the lack of dialogue and music, just the sound of the paper tussling and the fire burning. That’s a nice touch.
Gabriel: You know, I appreciate that, and that was something…that wasn’t actually the original approach, because in my head I was thinking, “OK, well, what’s this going to sound like?” And I think, I’m not a coder, I’m not an artist, but if there’s one thing I’m good with, it’s music and writing. So naturally in my head it’s like, “What do I want this to sound like? What’s gonna play when Enve wakes up? What mood, what tone am I aiming for?” And honestly, that was the most difficult. Everything else has been cake compared to the environment [and] what did I want the environment to sound like.
So I kind of stopped one day and I just said, “Well, wait a minute, there’s something missing here.” In this environment, as I would play the game. I tried to come up with my own music, I went the kind of faster paced, slightly faster tempo route, kind of an 8-bit/16-bit sound, then I dabbled with a very moody pipe organ with some reverb and things like that. But then I said, “What if there wasn’t music? What if there was just environmental ambience?”
So I came up with a couple things, and I found a few good sound tools to give me some great guidance. And all of a sudden, it [Enve] wakes up now…and I have to credit Limbo, because Limbo started this way too. Limbo didn’t start with a track…it didn’t start with music at all. It started with just ambience, and I said, “Crap! This makes sense! This is probably why I’ve been racking my brain.”
So it turned out my biggest challenge with what to decide for the music was to actually not have it at all. At least for the first part, just to build that tension. But funny enough, I had a little bit of mixed reaction to that. They would try the demo, [they would say], “Oh there’s no music. What’s going on? Is there any audio?” And it’s hard for me to be like, “There will be, but…Limbo, guys!” (Laughs) “Remember Limbo!” So I appreciate that, because that was a big challenge, and I knew I was going to get mixed reaction…”Oh, there’s no music, where’s the music? I need my music right now!” and all that. It doesn’t always fit at that moment.
Marshall: Yeah, and I’m a really musical person myself, but I actually thought it does work better for the most part without the music. It just focuses on the atmosphere and the task at hand.
So on that note: If there are any, what are some of the games that influenced Crumple?
Gabriel: Yeah, I mentioned Limbo. Limbo is a big one, because I knew I wanted to do something like Limbo, just not as abstract. And that’s definitely not a dig on the developer, because Limbo was one of the most striking games I ever played, period. And what a hell of a time that game came out too, during the revolution of indie development period…with that, Limbo was my major [influence]. I loosely say Braid, but Braid was a whole other beast in and of itself. Stunning game, but the whole time mechanic…there’s no element of time…so to speak, rewinding time…there’s none of that in Crumple. But time does sort of play a factor in that.
But I will definitely say Limbo is probably the core inspiration for where I wanted to go with Crumple. But again, I knew that Limbo had a certain abstract…I’m not even going to say certain, a VERY abstract feel to it, especially at the end where I just put the controller down after I beat it and [I’m] like, “What in god’s name just happened?” And where everything else kind of made sense, it showed just enough to creep you out…it was like, “Oh my god, what was that?” You couldn’t put two and two together, you knew there was something more. But damnit, that ending…it was a striking ending, but again I read people’s comments on that ending, and I absolutely was not alone. And there were a lot of people like, “What in the hell just happened?”
So I knew the one thing I needed to avoid was when the time comes for the ending in Crumple, that the ending would make complete…well, as much sense as possible. I wouldn’t say complete sense, because there’s always going to be someone who’s like, “Why?”
Marshall: Oh absolutely, ending a game is probably about as hard as ending a movie because it’s the payoff. It’s the resolution…even more so than watching a movie. You’ve invested yourself in this game, and you want a reward. All I can say is, for any game you do, don’t do “cliffhanger endings.” I hate cliffhanger endings.
Marshall: “Wanna find out what happens? Buy my next game!” Like, no! I wanna know what happened now!
Gabriel: (Still laughing) So about that…
Marshall: Oh, it’s OK!
Gabriel: Here’s the thing about that…I’m glad you said that, because Crumple was going to be just one simple, straightforward game or whatever the case, small scale. But because we were making it in Flash at the time, Flash obviously had so many limitations, and there were so many things we were already putting in the game. So the question became, from my programmer, “Well, Gabriel, we’ve got a lot going on right now and it’s great, but it’s Flash. What do you want to do about this, because it’s beginning to bog down overall performance. So what do we do?” So I decided, “Why not episodes? Let’s make Crumple into episodes!”
Marshall: OK! That’s totally OK. I was saying that more as a stab at AAA games where you’ve played for 14 hours, and you get no payoff. For an indie game with episodes, that’s fine.
Gabriel: Well even people complained about the Lord of the Rings movies! They’re like, “Why did Fellowship of the Ring end like that?” I’m like, “Um, there’s two other ones coming!” But people weren’t happy!
Marshall: Yeah, if you’ve got specific episodes, you can end on cliffhangers. But if you have a self-contained game, and then you just end vaguely…I dunno, it’s just a little pet peeve of mine.
Gabriel: I won’t pull a Sopranos, that’s for sure.
Marshall: Good point. So, next question: You’re one of the core members of the International Game Developers Association of Sacramento, IGDA Sacramento for short. Tell us a bit more about what you do with them, and the association’s emergence over the past couple of years.
Gabriel: So, I moved here from New Jersey, I’m from the east coast. I moved from New Jersey just over four years ago. When I moved here, I had essentially a three-page game design doc, thus becoming Kinship, the other game that we’re working on. And when I got here, I realized very quickly I was 3,000 miles, I had no one that I really knew here, and it became a thing of, “I have a game idea!” And I said, “Well crap, something’s gotta give with this.”
So I found Sac Anime probably a week before the event itself. I said, “Let me go there, see who I can connect with. Let’s see what’s going on.” It wouldn’t be my first time being at an anime con, but anyway…I started connecting with some really good people, some of them I still talk to ‘til this day. As time went on, and my kind of network started branching out, I connected with a game developer group here in Sacramento run by a guy named Joseph, and he had been running the group probably for a good six/seven years before I even showed up.
So I get involved with this group, I attend some events and I talk about my games a little bit and see what we could do. But then something happened, probably about a year-ish after connecting with the group and being a part of the group, someone wanted to formalize an actual IGDA chapter here in Sacramento. I offered to help out, [said] “let’s see what we can do,” whatever we gotta make happen. And the ball got dropped unfortunately due to life…so I essentially said to Joe, “Give me this. Give me the torch, let’s do this, we’re never gonna get taken seriously in Sacramento if we don’t formalize something. And I think we could all use a little bit of inspiration, including myself, to do more here.”
So he gave it to me, he was like, “Run with it.” So I gave myself 30 days to get 10 people, because that’s what the higher ups had said, “If you want a new chapter, just get us 10 people.” I got 30 in 35 days, and we became official April 15, 2013. And since then, Joe passed the torch to me since we became an actual official chapter. He said, “My job is done sir. You did what we couldn’t. It is yours now.” So much love to those guys, because they helped. They helped make this work. And the idea with the chapter, the first big thing with the chapter, my goal was to show all of our people that we’re already involved, to tell them, “You need to do more. It’s time to finish what you’ve started.” Because I’ve seen many things involve start-up, start this and that, but with very little of actually finishing what’s been started. Including me! I was right there too, so I wasn’t tooting my own horn.
People started digging that message big time. They were like, “Yes we can!” And I told them, “The Bay Area of San Francisco has had their fun. It is time for us to do our thing, give them a reason to come to us instead of the other way around.” And now here we are, about three years later, we are going to be celebrating our third annual indie arcade expo, celebrating the developers that are making games here in Sacramento and across the valley and beyond that. And [what’s] beginning to happen [is] a job market for game development here in Sacramento. Not the bay, because people are leaving the bay because they can’t afford it! Because it’s just getting more and more expensive! You know where I’m going with that.
Marshall: Not only that, we interviewed your colleague Colin Sullivan of Arclight Worlds. We interviewed him last year, and he said the same thing: Sacramento’s basically a refuge for all these devs being driven inland by the insane rent and gentrification out there. So yeah, that’s kind of helped [the Sacramento dev scene].
Gabriel: And shout-out to Colin too, yeah! He was my vice chair for awhile, but now he’s just going to be helping us on the legal consultation and things like that because he got some big opportunities. Which is great for him, much love to Colin. But that’s essentially it, and we’ve had people coming from Seattle, Portland, L.A…not even just the bay, people have moved up here from even southern California. And [they’re like], “I came to Sacramento to start somewhere, because I got laid off from (insert big studio name here), and now I can’t find work, so I come up here to see what we can do.”
And I’m like, “We have to do something, because that’s gonna be me looking for people.”…so now it’s beginning to happen. Freelance projects are beginning to happen here in Sacramento, and people that I work with are telling me, “This person just paid me to help them with 3D modeling, and they’re gonna contract me again for something else.” It’s beginning to happen. That’s what I want, it’s not just making games, but keep giving our talent here a reason to stay. And it’s happening! Slowly, but it’s happening.
And again, with the indie arcade event, we’re celebrating that. We’re celebrating what we’ve been doing, we do that through our progressive game jams. So we create that inspiration for young and old to just come to our events and understand that it’s never too early or never too late to make a dream come true. Because it took me, what I’m doing now, I wanted to do this when I was 16/17 years old when I saw two of my major inspirations…well, I should say three of my major inspirations, that being Donkey Kong Country on Super Nintendo, Star Fox on Super Nintendo, and then the fantastically cheesy cartoon from Canada, Reboot…when I saw those things, I was finished! I said, “I’ve gotta do that, tell me where.” But there was no opportunity, unless you moved to Vancouver, and again, from New Jersey…that’s not a cheap thing. So there you go!
Marshall: That’s so cool, you know, that you’ve got this very specific mission in mind. When you tell me that, that kind of explains how, this leads into another question I had prepared: Sacramento has really developed a substantial gaming scene over the past few years, and that’s pretty remarkable. And of course, it’s gotten so big that we just had our first Sac Gamers Expo at the Scottish Rite Center, we just covered that. That’s cool how you guys do so much to make Sacramento an inviting place for people to pursue their dream and to find work.
Gabriel: And that was super important for me because I feel that…because I could have just been another studio trying to find talent, make my game, and no one ever hears about us, no one ever hears what we’re doing. And it’s not even Sacramento, it’s so many studios…how many studios actually give back? You just don’t hear about that very often. Like you’ve been hearing it a bit more with some indie folks, but normally what happens is the founders will move on to something else and they’ll give back that way. But why would I wait to leave my own studio to give back to the people? I’m still trying to find answers myself, and I just see how many others are trying to find the same answers I’m trying to find.
So I say, “Let’s do this together.” Instead of complaining about it, let’s find a way, let’s create the tools, and let’s see if we can drive in even just one educator, one good person who knows their crap and they just bring it in…and now, it becomes contagious. The education and inspiration becomes contagious, and you’re seeing that now. That makes me feel so incredible! Why wait to give back when I can share my knowledge now, and we can grow together, you know. Competition’s fine, but in the indie development side, we can’t be competing. We need to be inspiring!
Marshall: And you need to…I definitely think indie devs should work together more. You’ve got a lot to share, and you’re all kind of doing the same purpose, you’re trying to make idiosyncratic, different kinds of games that you’re never gonna see on the AAA market.
Gabriel: Absolutely! And that’s where we can stand out, and I just feel that more people will remember us that way. They’ll be able to be like, “Their games are awesome, but damnit, look what they’ve done for the community also!” It’s so easy to forget to give back because you’re so focused on your own successes, or at least your own little illusion of success. And unfortunately, that’s not when you truly succeed. When you inspire one person to not so much follow your footsteps, but create their own path because of what you’ve done, that to me is success. That beats whatever amount of money I made off of a game.
Marshall: I totally agree. That’s so beautifully said, when you said that I thought about some of the people that inspired me with my work. I like that distinction there: Not following in their footsteps, but going in your own path. You’ve gotta do your own projects, and follow your own dreams and inspire you to decisively go for that dream. You can’t put a price tag on that.
Marshall: So, for a fun question, this is a question we ask just about every dev and I know you mentioned a couple ones you grew up loving, what are some of your favorite games of all-time and/or the ones that inspired you to be a developer?
Gabriel: Oh crap!
Marshall: Pick a few.
Gabriel: (Laughs) Top five, holy crap. OK, so the ones that hit me the hardest…I mentioned the ones that initially caused me to want to make games in the first place. They very very first game that made me want to make anything period was Outrun in the arcade back in 1986, 1987 by good old Sega. As much as I love Nintendo, Sega made Outrun…but that was the game that made me want to make driving games, and why I love driving today, and why one of my future games will be a driving game…but that was probably the first game that made me want to get into any sort of development in the first place.
And I remember begging my dad…remember, you’re talking mid/late 80’s here, we had not internet, we didn’t know what that was…so god help me trying to find a way to make something! I just had my trusty pen and paper, trying to draw stuff out. So I was essentially creating some sort of game design doc at 10/11/12 years old, just because my imagination was so sparked up because I played a driving game that didn’t lap around the same area. I was driving to a destination, and every level was different. And I’m like, “Oh my god, what’s happening here?”
Anyway, so tangent aside…I mentioned Donkey Kong Country, Star Fox…god man, Contra 3, Alien Wars god help me, the motorcycle scene and just jumping from missile to missile, oh my goodness. That’s me! I love that stuff. I mean, the ending to Super Metroid, I almost cried…but then I started playing, the ones that really gave me a reason to not be afraid to be bold and a little bit ambitious in my games, God of War. Definitely the first God of War, just seeing the Hydra come out for the first time what, 10 minutes, not even five minutes into the start of the game? And it was funny because I had only heard about that game through one of my sisters, which was weird in and of itself because [she was one of] the same people who would make fun of me for playing video games, she’s the one who told me, “Oh, my boyfriend and I got this game! You’re gonna lose it if you see it.”
So I played it….blew my mind away. I’m like, “OK, there’s a massive boss in the distance. I can’t fight it!” When I saw it, I tried to run right to it like “I’m gonna kill this thing!” But they’re like “you can’t fight it, you’ve got to wait and just avoid it.” And that screwed me up because I was like, “Oh my god, what tension!…I’ve gotta do something with this.” It was spectacular….to keep it short with this….I could honorably mention Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy III, spectacular, [heartfelt] games like that, just deep games.
I think the one that has hit me the hardest of all-time would be Journey on PlayStation 3. And I think the second that would tie close to that would be Spec-Ops: The Line. Just games that gripped me…but Journey, I think, really messed me up as an adult. (Laughs) It uplifted me, and created a downfall at the same time, because it was just…[I] never expected a game like that to do for my heart what that game did. So yeah! (Laughs) I love that question.
Marshall: Thank you! Those were some awesome choices. So I’ve just a couple more questions for you here, next one:
Of course you’ve got the first part of Crumple finished, and that’s out on Newgrounds. Tell us about some of your other projects you’re working on.
Gabriel: So we’ve also got Kinship. Kinship was actually my first, game, but that was more of my “ambitious” game, so that was going to take awhile to get done. Faced a few setbacks while progressing, that game’s been a little bit of tug of war with what we want to do and what I want to happen in the game. But it’s coming along much better now, we’re hoping to show a new trailer and a new demo by the Indie Arcade in early April.
The other games that we’re working…because I’m actually working on, slowly and surely, a couple other games…there is a first-person, I don’t know about survival horror, I think thriller. Just survival thriller may be a better description for it. But I’m working on a first-person survival thriller, it’s going to play loosely like Mirror’s Edge, but it’s going to be very quick and to the point. But it’s going to be quick and to the point because something’s coming after you, and the idea was I wanted to keep this game small-scale but very, very intense.
There will be multiple endings depending on how fast you get through it, but the idea is…the game is called Stalk, and “stalk” will have two meanings behind it. The first meaning is that it takes place in a massive corn maze, and the other meaning behind it is that something is stalking you. Now, it’s going to be very minimalistic in a sense of what’s going on and who’s after you. You just know you are in trouble, and kind of like the way Crumple starts where Enve wakes up, [you’re] already in this sense of danger, but it has no idea what’s going on other than it sees the immediate issues that things are burning to the ground.
In this particular case with Stalk, this character wakes up…she wakes up right outside this corn maze in this massive mountain area, and as she sees this maze she realizes that’s the only way she can go through to get out of there. But then she starts hearing something, and you just book it. So now you have to get through this, and hope to god you don’t get caught. So that’s Stalk!
The last one that I can say that we’re working on comfortably right now is a very new concept…as a matter of fact, I just came up with the idea a couple of months ago…the idea behind it actually came from our drought here in California. And we had our first significant rainfall I’d say in October of November, I think it was November…and as I went to pick up a friend of mine, as I was waiting and I was listening to the rain fall on my car, I said, “Damn!” I started thinking about clouds and the rain and, you know…game developers, our brains just don’t stop, nerds that we are. So then I challenged something, I flipped the script a bit and I said, “So, what if the clouds…were actually the barrier to our rainfall?”
Thus, this game idea that’s coming to life little by little, I’m still in the pre-production stages of it, but damnit I’ve got a good design doc laid out….I’m aiming to kind of trigger the emotions a little bit because of the significance that game will have, and the clouds and the rainfall. I haven’t finalized my title yet, I have a good idea what I want to call it, but right now it’s just, you know. “Secret Project Drought” or something like that. (Laughs)
But again, the concept behind that, when the idea came to mind, I got such crazy goosebumps from it. I was like, “Oh my god, I think you could do something with this!” And yeah…so that’s one that, I want to keep it small scale, because I want to get it out there. You think of these ideas, and you’re just dying for people to see it, if it’s like, “Well how do I do it if it’s gonna be an eight-hour game? That’s gonna take me three or four years to make.” I was like, “No, let’s be smart about this.” So yeah…I can share those right now.
Marshall: I love those ideas, especially the drought one, that is brilliant and timely. Very distinct but huge contemporary issue to dovetail off of for a game. I look forward to those!
Gabriel: Thanks man!
Marshall: Last question: What is your advice to other aspiring indie devs?
Gabriel: Keep your ego in check. If you come into game development with an ego, we, especially I, will wipe the floor with you. Period. Because egos have no place in development. Pride, yes. Because it’s very…and I think what happens with ego in some cases, a lot of us are introverts. We’re very shy, some of us are basement-dwellers, others are just very super-shy people, very anti-social. But we have this idea, we love games, we’re dying to express this idea that we’ve got, but there’s this battle between [how] we’re really excited about the game and the idea we have, [and the the feeling of] “I don’t like talking to people!” (Laughs)
So what happens is when some people…and I’ve seen this just from experiences even just moving here…when some people who try to shed that shyness, and they start meeting people, they start connecting with people, there’s a certain excitement…this excitement that they’re really not used to.
And I totally understand that, because I used to be that guy, I was like, “Oh my god, this is astounding! I want to tell everything to everybody!” What happens, though, is there’s a certain mental discipline that you have to have. And if you don’t have that, your excitement becomes very egotistical, [it] becomes very arrogant. For many of us, it’s hard enough to approach even one person to say, “I’m a game developer, and this is my game idea.”
It’s easy to talk about it, but when the time comes when you have to show it, it’s nerve-wracking for a lot of people, they’ve never had to do that before. Especially what we’re doing in our chapter, where we’re taking people out of the their comfort zone…one of the big problems in Sacramento is complacency. And where I’m from, complacency is unacceptable other than the weekend when you go drinking, clubbing, or the beach or whatever the case may be.
But here, there’s a lot of that. And I respect that, because it’s kept me at a certain calm with with things and able to approach things with a little more forethought….that’s been really, really wonderful. But again, it becomes a problem. So definitely, the ego thing, without getting into this big psychological thing, ego is the biggest thing that you need to keep at the door. Take pride in what you have, yes, but don’t tell me why your thing will be better than ours or anyone else’s, because we will knock you to the ground….you know, verbally obviously. We are doing this together because we’ve all been really friggin’ nervous to share our game idea, or even our talents, because of other people we’ve had to deal with who denied us. Our own families, who have told us, “Game development? You’re never gonna get anywhere in game development! You’re never going to get anywhere doing anything with video games.”
We’ve already had to deal with the closest people in our lives, so the last thing we need is some stranger trying to tell us, “No you can’t.” We don’t do that. We’re gonna tell you, “You can,” but…we can’t force you to believe you can. You still have to do that yourself. But we’re gonna give you the tools TO believe in yourself, just like it’s happening with me. I’m on the same level with everyone else, I operate on no pedestal, and I prefer it that way because it keeps me grounded. And it helps me help others to be the same way.
So that’s definitely a huge, huge thing: Just keep your egos in check, and if you’re gonna come help us, come for the community. The money will come afterwards, the money will come, I can assure you! Because we all wanna make money, there’s nothing wrong with that. But if that’s your core reason for doing anything…money, popularity contest and things like that…you will fail fast, and that’s not what we’re here for. Go work at Activision, go work at EA, you’ll be fine there, maybe. Just not with us! (Laughs)
Marshall: Well Gabe, thank you so much! That was brilliant, very insightful. I can say with all honesty this has been one of our best interviews. You’ve had some of the most original and helpful comments, not just for other devs, but for anyone interested in gaming. I’ve loved all your stories and all your advice. This has been an absolute treat talking to you!
Gabriel: This means the world to me, man. Thank you.
Marshall: Thank you so much. I know we had a lot of scheduling conflicts that pushed this interview back, but it was definitely worth it.
Gabriel: This is the beauty of it! When it happens, and that’s the whole thing: We can look at time as the enemy, or we can look at it a just an unwrapped gift, and tonight was just that! It has been a very crazy couple of weeks, and it’s only the 18th, we’re only 18 days in 2016.
Gabriel: But this is by far one of the best, so I’m beyond grateful for all of this. And you guys [at Last Token Gaming] keep kicking ass, because we’re going to need you guys! People like me, we need you guys. Because when more of us start popping up, we’re gonna need you guys to keep being the way you are, because we’re gonna need it, we really are. So thank you, seriously!
Marshall: Well, we at Last Token Gaming will certainly do that! We’re already off to a good start this year, and the best is yet to come. So thank you very much again, we were joined by Gabriel Gutierrez from Nascent Games! Be sure to play his game Crumple on Newgrounds, I’ll include the link to that below, as well as links to all of his other accounts as well as IGDA Sacramento below at the end of the transcript. Thanks again Gabe, again I’m lead editor Marshall Garvey joined by Sean Willis, and we’ll see you next time on the next Last Token Gaming interview!
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